>> oh, yes, i really think we can hold out hope that that will happen. john kerry is secretary of state. when he came back from vietnam, he threw some soldiers under the bus so he could advance his career. he disrespected the entire enterprise in vietnam for his own interests. there could be some embarrassing moments for him in the and the president, but he will be concerned. lou: thank you both. and thank you mr. ramirez. that is in for "lou dobbs "lou s tonight." thank you for being with us. good night from new york. neil: okay, you're ready for the storm after the storm in michigan. official word today.

this is still not done in michigan. tonight, or if i told you that these guys are taking their act on the road? it's going to be a bumpy road. welcome, everybody. i am neil cavuto. unions are vowing that it is a right to work state. they are promising the law for public workers to have the option of joining a union. unions insist this doesn't give the governor a free pass to from the recall election. some are planning that in michigan. do you remember what scott walker winter in wisconsin? unions emboldened by the election, they can rightly say that they helped carry barack obama over the finish line. sometimes violently, right to work is wrong. even though they released video like this.

don't think that they are not trying to do the same in other states like new jersey and new york. hold on folks, i really suspect that is the just getting started. they are not seeing this labor crunch. how big and bad business debt? we have rick ungar and dd binky. it really doesn't matter. they could still flex their muscles. what is happening? >> i think you are going to start seeing it now. he's unions are fighting for their life right here. you have about a 37% of private

attacks. you are you're going to see a drop in union dues because of the right to work. they understand that that is why it is so violent, as you have seen. neil: i think some of the violent episodes are the exception. this is doing this kind of behavior, and this is just the kind of pr marketing that the unions don't want to see. >> is sort of like a makeshift mafia. can be a good worker. if you are a good worker, you're going to keep your job anyway. they are gone with the wind when they are done. they are desperate and they are worried. i asked governor daniels and he

said that the amex worked very well. >> the first thing i think it is a terrible row when the punch. there is no need to keep going with it. i do not endorse it. it is terrible. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] neil: it wasn't just that. >> it's wrong. neil: don't you think they set themselves back? >> that one person dead. >> let's get to the real issue. do you think it is incumbent upon the unions, no matter how heated it gets, don't, down? >> bear their they are their own worst enemies. it is terrible pr.

>> he did not want to pass this law. he knew that this would cause them problems at reelection time. he can't make up his mind how he wants to explain it. there was one reason to support the right to work law. you can make the argument that it might bring more business to your state. but we know that there is an effect to that corresponds, and things go down for everybody, the wages go down. the real reason that these laws are being put into effect is the unions dues. neil: there is nothing wrong with them saying that public humans should be -- >> this is the great misnomer. it has given every worker in united states of america -- [talking over each other] [talking over each other]

neil: they don't like paying his dues, what is so wrong with that? >> let me explain why. the way the law was before we pass the right to work on the way it was all over the country coming of a choice as the worker. you have the choice not to join the union. then you are obligated to pay the administrative portion of the dues. you don't have to pay for political activity. that is what the law says. there have been cases where people thought they were being charged for political activities [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> let me tell you why they should. the law requires that they get the benefits of collective bargaining. neil: that is making the assumption about the faulty 3% -- let me ask you about this. when you say to somebody. a guy gets fired. not a member of the union. the union is obligated to represent him in the termination

action. neil: you made that up. >> i did not make that up. >> let me tell you the rest of it. >> you have a problem with adjusting to unions, if you are so great, standby your group. >> i'm not okay with freeloading. the max. neil: do you think this is a freeloading thing? two they shouldn't have to pay union dues. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] neil: with freeloading you get the benefits of everything. >> you can sue the unit for doing a bad job defending you. neil: you are such a good lawyer, i don't understand a word you're saying. >> what i will ask you is this. whether you are for or against this, the image is that michigan is going to be open for business. indiana is going to be open for

business. it is the perception. it is all about getting business to your state. now, the 24 states have this feature. some with remarkably low unemployment rates. who wins? >> well, i think right now the unions are losing. for the first time since 2009, public perceptions over 50% had a disapproval rating of the unions. this is an isolated incident and most of these guys are not violating people. but most rightward states are getting the auto manufacturers that are coming into the country. the perception is that right work state is a more competitive state. it is true that workers in those states make $1500 less than the union workers. but the perception against unions is growing. >> john, i appreciate you saying now. i'm willing to agree that there is data that shows that you will see more business coming in to

the states. but i really appreciate that john pointed out the 81,500-dollar decline in earnings. for all workers. to answer your own question. neil: artificially high? >> it is a percentage of gdp -- [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> we don't live in china. >> we have this conversation. neil: the bottom line is that it will be part of this wave. what do you fear? you say if it doesn't happen -- >> i think unions are dead and gone. >> let's hope they're not done. >> when we get people that are more nonunion, they have to go. neil: were your thoughts on this?

[laughter] [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> units are not. make your point. >> i believe that workers have the right to organize and i also believe employers have the right to hire nonunion workers. i think that is how most americans feel. they should have the choice to be in a union. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> why are they not taking that choice? neil: .99% union? remark. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> allall right, i wish i had me time. neil: when we come back, think patriot act. find out why the government may already be invading your pipers.

they may someday lock you up for a crime that you weren't even thinking of committing. this is like a lawsuit that rick would like. also, it is the repeat instance of the. >> i didn't do anything. don't take me. don't take me. i didn't do anything. neil: why a similar situation at an apple store happen with a woman. i will tell you what happened with the injury after that. the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on all purchases, plus a 50% annl bonus. and everyone likes 50% more... [ midwestern/chicago accent ] cheddar! yeah! 50 percent more [yodeling] yodel-ay-ee-oo.

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neil: call this a fox business evasion alert. forget third parties or your bangs selling stocks that have increased. what did i tell you? what about the u.s. government becoming a one step spying shop?

it's true. well, not quite like that. anyway, new rules are giving the green light to look at everything from your mortgage records to your flight records and even your health records. for whatever reason. even if you are not suspected of a crime. your information is not being looked at by the u.s. government. but it is shared with foreign countries as well. our next guest says this is crossing the line. when i heard about this, i didn't believe it. it is so blatantly horrible it that can't be happening. why do you insist it is? >> the worst thing is that the government had all this data to throw into this big pot in the first place. there was this sort of notion that somehow there would be firewalls and dispatched it would be kept separate. this is a great lesson. never believe the government when they said we promise to be good stewards of your information. they are buying. neil: i do agree with you on

that. i always wondered in this age where everything is available, for a price, everything is digitized. your bank records and flight records, it's all out there. easy together if you want to. >> i actually think that the idea that the people are freaked out about gmail or faced with having all their data, it really misses the point. the idea that those guys want to sell you stuff, would you still have to click on them by is one thing. but it is a much bigger concern that the government can take all of those data sets without you even knowing. neil: would initiate that and what are they doing? >> this new scandal that has come up today, the government isn't looking necessarily at you anymore. they are just sifting through

these enormous piles of data, looking for anything that looks a little bit with suspicious. before they had to say that oh, she seems like a suspicious character to me. now, whenever she shows up with her records. neil: okay so with very little provocation, someone doesn't like the way that you look, we have a high suspicion that there is something that you are doing and that doesn't seem right. doesn't someone how to write off on that? doesn't have to approve that? >> one of the worst things about this in "the wall street journal" piece is that none of it is legal. all the government has to do -- any individual agency has to publish a notice saying that they are going to borrow data from another agency. then they are good to go. lawmakers love to write themselves loopholes. they wrote themselves a big one here in terms of privacy. the people who are opposed have to argue on the grounds that it is terribly invasive policy.

neil: this is a sign of our times. the government has office at its disposal. catherine, thank you so much. >> thank you. neil: police shocking this woman with tasers. the victim is here with their side of the story coming up next.

neil: she shopped till she dropped. police tape this woman outside the apple store. they say she refused to leave

after buying over her limit and icons >> she is not doing very good. she had swollen eyes, it's just awful what happened to this poor girl. >> why did they tase her? >> she speaks no english. our entire communication is mandarin. she does not speak english whatsoever. they tried to grab her back, they tried to hold onto her, she had a lot of money and it read she was christmas shopping. apparently that led to an arrest charged in the criminal protest in charge. she had already made an expensive purchase at the apple store. for the life of me, i cannot understand how you could treat a

customer like that. >> she wanted to more phones. one for her sister in china and another for another family member. neil: so we are not talking about dozens or hundreds or anything like that to . >> for phones, and for that, she was beaten for an animal. neil: apple has been commenting, as you know, the chinese stealing technology here, stealing phones, phone them at a big premium abroad, did not come up with anything you heard about or anyone you talk to? >> because she is an asian woman, they immediately go there. she is just a very nice and

respectful and quiet lady. a very successful businesswoman from shanghai. she doesn't need to do that to make money. even if she was, does not want her being beaten like that. neil: i don't understand the events that led to anyone getting tased in the store. could she resist or yell or scream? >> she yelled and she screamed. when it be ironic if the chinese government followed up a complaint about the maltreatment of one of their nationals. >> as far as you know, do you know what is your fiancé do? and she involved in the technology industry? >> she was an arrest restaurant business in shanghai. she has a couple of statehouses.

neil: does she have anything to do with technology? >> i don't of the extent of that. neil: there are rumors that she was going this technology for a high price to chinese officials to look at. is that totally untrue? >> that sounds like a smokescreen to me. i think the reason they aren't commenting, they know they did something wrong and it's blowing up their base. these ridiculous charges, they should be dropped before she even goes and she should be issued an apology. neil: parties doing? >> no, we are worried about the criminal case. she has a green card and we worry about her status. neil: her green card or be revoked. okay. >> she is a very successful woman. you know, she's from another

country. she was buying christmas presents and she's a very generous person. she was shopping at a mall. she is a christian and she won to buy presents for everybody. she says that all the time. he is a very generous and sweet lady. i cannot understand how she could be maltreated like that she wants to go back to china because she so upset. neil: john, we will keep an eye on that. okay, coming up next, a superhero. twins. i didn't see them coming.

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neil: despite these meetings at the white house, let's just say that the weather outside in washington is still frightful. with christmas fast approaching, it will almost assuredly be a recession if we don't get a deal. sometimes even superheroes need help. that's why you have the avengers. you can talk tackle big problems to get it. the superheroes of the past may try to help to fix it. gentlemen, welcome.

i'm not referring to either view is old, there is very little of this going on. but do you expect it to go on? is this what it will take for the speaker and the president to get a deal done? >> you see, the contraction of the economy up to 3%, a third of a trillion dollars in new taxes for american taxpayers, if they don't get this thing done, we are really going down the financial tubes. they were set up by the president and the congress to be so bad that it had to be solved. it behooves them to get it done. they have to do that. neil: but they don't. deadlines are deadlines, and the

backup backbone if they don't get something done -- as they try to move the line on that. i wonder, congressman, is it your sense that they will have a deal and that could be even worse? >> well, that is a possibility. i really hope that isn't the result. they have to have credibility. the deal that they do, i think they can do a big down payment, 8600 or 700. maybe a trillion dollars coming equally from taxes and spending cuts. neil: so you think the ratio should be one-to-one? >> i'm not saying what the ratio should be. it's whatever they can negotiate. we are not trying to be, you know, in the audience telling them what to do. but whatever they do, it has to

be a credible package and then they have to set up the targets for different areas when the real hard work has to begin. neil: speaker, the fear is for many that they are angry at speaker boehner for giving away the negotiations and on the tax hikes right away. and the president doubled revenue demand. when you say that? >> i think the speaker is in a tight position. in order to pass anything, he has to have the ability to do it and the support. i would hope that people would step back and give them the room to make the decision. if i was going to negotiate this, i would not be telling everyone where we at that.

neil: so do you think that was the case? >> well, the american people expect the leadership to come to the table. one of the things that mr. gephardt and i have done, we have got some cuts in production and increases in revenue. there are a lot of ways to get revenue increases. it could be cast, it could be all kinds of things. but there has to be an expense to revenue and there has to be some cuts. you cannot just lie on it.

once it's done, you have to accept it. neil: there are two sides to this. some in the republican party will not give up on the revenue. you could argue that the fallout from it is the taxes are going to go up on the ridge. you may not like it, it may not be your cup of tea. you could come to jesus and try to realize that. i could be wrong, i could offend people. but on the left, sir, it's like democrats are over leveraging and overplaying their hands. i talked to a democratic congresswoman earlier he says there are a lot more revenues go after. and she would not or could not, just refuse to come up with one single thing she would. so therein lies the freeze.

is that right? >> can get yourself into a cul-de-sac on it. if everybody take extreme positions, you can't get the compromise that you need. so what they have to do, which we have done in the '90s, you have to come to some rough agreement on how much from revenues. how much i'm spending cuts. neil: the democrats in general are saying that they have gone that route before. george bush senior, to a degree ronald reagan in 1986 -- the cuts that were supposed to materialize later religion. so they are gun shy. >> i understand. you have to have it written into the law. you have to know the exact changes you're making in medicare and the defense programs and domestic programs and the tax bill. you have to have that all worked out in specific detail.

that is one thing they can't do the deals now. there's not enough time, they have to get a lot of help. neil: is getting a blueprint like that is going to be cut. >> yes, that's what you have to do. you talk about the '90s, but we did this in the '90s. we had these cuts in the '90s. we did an across-the-board haircut in the '90s when we pay down when speaker -- when i was speaker, we pay down $650 billion in public debt over the persuaders. neil: it is possible and it can be done. when we come back, the details. what if i told you that they have to settle us down a couple of days just to get it done before the end of the year? and tony little on how to solve a very big mess in washington

neil: when each side calls for guards, they are highly thought of by their successors. okay. the devil is in the details of what you come up with. even the broad blueprint of the deal. it holds the extreme members of each party, vowing not to stick to that and do that deal. they are telling me, the democrats are telling the president that you won this

election, you don't have to concede anything. the american people elected you. they elected your tax hikes. they didn't like you going after entitlements. what do you say? >> republican-controlled house of representatives. whatever you do, it has to go through that house of representatives. so you have to get a compromise and you have to get about half the votes from each party in houses, and trust me, that is going to be hard to do, especially when you get to the big deal next year. getting the votes will be hard to do, no matter what anybody tells you. numbers do not want to vote for this stuff. it is political poison. it will take everybody working hard together to get it done. >> sometimes you suffer for doing this. democrats who went along with what bill clinton wanted to do in 1993, many of them suffered

for that. many of them lost their jobs. but it took out a lot of folks along the way. do you think among these folks, they should take out the other's >> it depends on how you can go back home and explain the vote. this is not about trying to raise taxes on people to create jobs. it should be about taking social security away from old people. it should be about how to get the economy growing again. we need to spur the economy. we need to grow the economy. that is what the big picture is about. that is what mr. gephardt and i are trying to talk about. we can get this going again. >> i am telling you, your

successor could lose his job. >> is a risk we all take in this business. neil: my biggest risk is making sure that there are no big words and the prompter. congressman, let's say you get a deal done. let's say the market sells off on it. because it doesn't believe the words printed on the paper, but they are not real. but it's not a real deal. isn't a bad deal worse than no deal? >> well, they have to get a deal. if you go over the fiscal cliff, then you really do have problems in the market. problems in the economy. neil: i do know that. but it is really credible and the markets believe that. >> there will be a reaction, and the congress will have to get

back in town and deal with that, it, like they did with the t.a.r.p. funding years ago. >> the whole t.a.r.p. debacle, the backup financing of the banks, you know, it was shut down. it would shut down the market. so they quickly reconvened and try to get something together to avoid that. to save another market debacle. a few months later we were down an additional 4000 points. is there a risk is going to the market and making sure were trying to make sure they are happy with whatever you do? >> the market and economy, the bigger picture -- -- people want certainty. the one certainty in the tax code. they want certainty where the government will go down the road. you have to have agreements to make sure that happens. when we pass this tax cut -- we

do them for five years at a time. those are the senate rules. but that deprives us. people want certainty. we want to make sure that they can invest not just tomorrow or three weeks from now, before it long. not the kind. neil: you think they will get that certainty, congressman? >> i do. >> is there such a thing as one side winning in this? >> i've always been told that the art of the deal is that each side chains out of that. >> unthinkably deeded deals where everybody at the end is dissatisfied and somewhat angry, if not completely angry. that is the sign of a good compromise. it's not what you wanted.

you have to do to get the economy going and help this country be as strong as it can be. neil: grover norquist says he did sign a pledge. and then republicans disavowed a letter to henry taxes you >> really mysterious thing about it is it that people have to be gracious enough to accept their victory and go on. neil: we tried together to save the nation. you are a superhero in that

regard. seriously, gentlemen, thank you much. tony little is coming on next on why washington dc needs work out a deal. till then, do not treadmill on me.

>> this is a test neil: time is running out and washington is still trying to get a deal done. we have superstar tony little. it is great to have you back, tony. to i want to be a superhero like you were. neil: you already make me look bad. [laughter] neil: this is why i hook up with

people like us. tony, is it your sense -- i see a lot of your work and what you do and how you motivate people, it is all about getting in the moment and getting in the zone. but in washington, they are nowhere near that. how would you bring them back? >> they are definitely not in the conceive and believe and achieve mode. [applause] >> i will get what they are dealing with. it is a product in the plan. it is a combination of tax increases. decreasing spending,. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> we are forgetting the

customer. it doesn't matter if you are president obama or republicans, we are forgetting about the people. that is what you can't forget. no matter how you look at it, this could be a great thing. unless you take the injury and turn it into a product -- neil: i will tell you something. i liken this to the resolve to lose weight. you remind folks that it's not easy. when you talk about cuts in losing weight, easier said than done. they have to stick to that. everyone can make a goal of resolution of the new year, i'm going to lose weight, get in shape. so my fear is that they come up with a deal that says all the right things.

we are going to shrink the government and actually doing it is a lot harder than promising at. >> i look at it is when you are trying to lose weight, you don't eat more calories, right? you cut the calories and the workout. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] neil: okay. [laughter] not too long ago, it was sort of a goof, but i was doing this training program with one of our fitness experts here. and i didn't want to exercise very hard. i didn't want people pitching in spandex. i was concerned with not overdoing it. little bit of slack, and hopefully not much. just a little bit here and there. you have to motivate people and

say get off your butt and do something. how do you tell them that? >> you know, again, i say let go of the egos. let the egos go. let america grow. because it is about americans and republicans and democrats. all of us working together for america we want america expect us work together. you cannot please everybody. if you are just taxing everybody because it is the easy way to go because you didn't want to cut, it could affect the whole economy. people could be without jobs again. you know, it is not a good area to go in. i look at it like a different area. when i was growing up, everyone

listen to free bird from lynyrd skynyrd. i think sums things have changed. now they listen to other songs. [laughter] neil: i do want to ask you a personal question. you're one of the most recognizable fitness folks. do you you pick out when you go to a restaurant? would you do? >> i handled that sales proposition long time ago. i believe in the temple buried. five days a week, treat your body is a temple. two days a week, treated treat it as an amusement park. they will never know which days those are. listen, what happens if they start passing this account we

don't lose? neil: you know, that is a very good point. >> and where along the line, someone has to let america go and think about the the -- the bigger picture. neil: tony little, it's so great to have you. neil: thank you and goodnight, everyone. can i help you? i heard you guys can ship ground for less than the ups store. that's right. i've learned the only way to get a holiday deal is to camp out.

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